What you are not mentioning is the fact that in Arab countries, men performing “Oriental Dance” on stage is not accepted and the women dancing on stage has all sorts of problems with the “Vice Police” who can literally fine them for costuming that is too risque by their cultural standards.

Discrimination is not limited to the housing or labor market, and not every discrimination is illegal. Discrimination is differential perceptions, standards, rules for human beings based on group membership, not individual traits. And this entire thing “better behave manly” clearly is a discrimination of men. It puts unique gender tied restrictions on them how they ought (not) behave in oriental dance.

Considering that belly dance originated in the Middle East, not the West, there should be more  value on that culture’s standards, not just take the dance right out of  that culture and superimpose an entirely different idealogy over it.  Yes, we are lucky to have the freedom of choice in the West, but also a real responsibility to teach belly dance students more about a culture.

It is not illegal, but it being unsanctioned by the law does not mean it should be unsantioned by our moral judgments.


I say more power to men and their individual choices to express themselves. Ultimately gender roles and restrictions are holding women down more than men, and breaking them up in every possible direction will mean more freedom for all.

There is always, in our free Westen society, plenty of freedom of expression, but what you are criticizing as “moral judgments” are not; they are critiques of a performers inappropriate choices in an ethnic dance form.


Not to forget the freedom for the individual, like Zorba here. In contrast to you I do not see myself in the position to tell him what (not) to do in his dance and expression simply because he was born a man.

Well,  Zorba here has asked dancers on an open forum their honest opinions about his costuming and was honestly and not in a morally judgemental way advised by more than one “pro” how to improve them, specifically by wearing a vest as opposed to a top that looks like a bra, and that he is bringing too many jarring elements into his costuming.  He’s decided not to listen to any of it, and even though he is not dancing “professionally” he is representing the art of belly dance, so yes, I don’t appreciate it.

We are performing an ethnic art form – I am the first to criticize (mostly female) bellydancers for not doing so, and say I feel the Arab heritage is being disrespected.
The bottom line is it is the dancer to decide for themselves what to innovate and what to respect.

The difference I am saying is discriminatory is there is a whole different outcry to what men can or cannot do, what men are or are not supposed to do. And this outcry from white Anglosaxon crowds, for example, is quite different to the ethnic requirements. Beware, in many Arab settings, diverse as they are, Arab men move their bodies in ways Anglosaxons would consider unmanly. Or wear those “dresses”, as I’ve heard quite a few Anglosaxons make fun of the white traditional men’s gear many Arab men wear.
Discrimination is not limited to the housing or labor market, and not every discrimination is illegal. Discrimination is differential perceptions, standards, rules for human beings based on group membership, not individual traits. And this entire thing “better behave manly” clearly is a discrimination of men. It puts unique gender tied restrictions on them how they ought (not) behave in oriental dance.
It is not illegal, but it being unsanctioned by the law does not mean it should be unsantioned by our moral judgments.
I say more power to men and their individual choices to express themselves. Ultimately gender roles and restrictions are holding women down more than men, and breaking them up in every possible direction will mean more freedom for all.
Not to forget the freedom for the individual, like Zorba here. In contrast to you I do not see myself in the position to tell him what (not) to do in his dance and expression simply because he was born a man.

Of course, that is what Zorba is complaining about but to clarify,  unlike housing or employment discrimination which is illegal, we are talking here about an ethnic  dance art form, where everyone, men and women, need to be more “discriminating”  (in t his context meaning “well thought out decisions”)  about their presentation onstage.   But, since  Zorba who always points out, correctly, that men have worn skirts throughout history ,  then it would be okay for Zorba to perform Flamenco in a ruffly dress instead following the “discriminatory” rules about men’s costume in that dance art form??????

As a woman I know I can tell a tale on the burden of having a bag of rules for men, and a huge box of rules for women in certain male-dominated areas. I know about the complaints by men on how women allegedly circumvent the rules.
It is always easy – and harmful/discriminatory – to attack the minority under scrutiny (token in the social science vocabulary) by majority standards.

Over 400 years ago in Middle East, men costumed as women and danced as women professionally because women were not allowed to perform in public.  When women started performing in public they had to adhere to standards, even to this day (think covering midriff in Egypt to avoid being fined).  So if men have the same “right” to perform belly dance, they also have the same level of accountabiity for  costuming, even if some rules are “different” due to BIOLOGY, hello the bra tops don’t work well on men because they don’t have the “equipment” to put in it!     Just common sense!

Hmm we would have to ask Zorba but I doubt he’d be bare chested or dangerously slit in a church setting.
Who said he is?
I don’t think he talks about having no rules at all, but not having the DISCRIMINATORY rules set up for men in bellydance only.
As a woman I know I can tell a tale on the burden of having a bag of rules for men, and a huge box of rules for women in certain male-dominated areas. I know about the complaints by men on how women allegedly circumvent the rules.
It is always easy – and harmful/discriminatory – to attack the minority under scrutiny (token in the social science vocabulary) by majority standards.

Do we not have enough problems being accepted as real dancers and artists without having to deal with this?”

In what way does a man in women’s clothes (I am not saying this is what Zorba is and does, but if we assumed it for a second) take away from being  a real art?
Men have performed in women’s dress on opera and theatre stages when women were prohibited from performing. Will you say Mozart and Shakespeare are not high art? Just because bearded men in women’s dress performed?
Or – does it have nothing to do with ART, but what you personally might want or not want to see?

“Masculine and feminine are not artifiicul constructs.. they vary from culture to culture.”
This means you admit yourself notions of masculinity and femininity vary with time and place. Hence they ARE artificial (which means not determined by biology, but man and culture formed).

You are free to dress like a woman. Or should you happen to wear pants from time to time? Well, I can recommend you texts written by men, telling women what (not) to wear 100 years ago. In pretty much the spirit you are telling men what (not) to wear.
I go by not doing to other people what I would not want them to do to me.