A Quest for Beauty

I had just finished sending Turkish music off to my male dancer in rancho Cordova for his new restaurant job, and I got a heads up to head over to gilded serpent. I have taught many male dancers, including zorba.everyone of them has a different path in their quest for theirs souls dance.i am pleased to see it is being sought with dignity, and honesty.no matter how you feel about it, men dance! enjoy.
Cory Zamora
Fresno, calif
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What a beautiful article!

I have always thought the fear to not come across as masculine encompasses the danger of the dancer becoming a parody of himself.

Kudos to you Zorba!

I find it interesting that Zorba has decided to “ignore all the rules” he’s heard about male dancers; well what about the fact that female dancers have always had to recognize “rules” that were really unwritten standards about performing belly dance, especially professionally at regularly paid gigs in clubs and restaurants.  Trust me, I worked in Bay Area clubs and restaurants for ten years as a professional belly dancer and could list all sorts of  “rules” for female performing dancers.  The real “reality” is, there are still in and amongst  these “rules” some hard truths about costuming and choreography being appropriate for various types of  belly dance venues.  For example, a female performing at a church or school function would cover up a lot more (no high leg slits, maybe even a dress) than when performing at a club on Saturday night.  And certain hand gestures are considered offensive depending on whether the audience is Saudi or Egyptian.   “Rules” for female dancers are really standards, so my question to Zorba is, if female dancers performing “Oriental Dance” need to pay attention to these standards  does he consider it fair that he, just because he is male,  is somehow exempt from any requirements at all?   I have to conclude yes, or he wouldn’t be titling his article “Damn the Torpedoes…..”

Well, I suppose one can rationalize whatever one wants to, but in the first and second article by Zorba, and the enclosed pictures, I find his wearing of skirts, and beads, and very female-type attire very off-putting. It’s a bearded guy in drag!

Do we not have enough problems being accepted as real dancers and artists without having to deal with this? I once saw a fella from the Columbus area, also Greek, come out with veils on, all sorts of glitzy, very feminine costuming on, and my eyes about fell out of my head. Another bearded guy in drag!!!

    Male and female are NOT artificial constructs! They’re very real and every  culture has its “norms”, which might be different from culture to culture. And I will admit, I’m one of those who believe that “la danse orientale” is a  woman’s dance, period.  Men have performed folkloric dances from time immemorial, but undulating and all the other feminine movements look strange on a male body. I’ve seen films of Tito and Horacio Sifuentes and they look effeminate when they perform orientale dance movements meant for women.  I understand – they’re teaching a female student body, so they must demonstrate the moves as a woman would dance them.

   I remember male dancers of past decades, Bobby Farrah, Zeeba, Amir, and even though they danced “butch” (as Valerie Camille used to tell her  male students to do) and they danced very well, there was still something a little strange about it all.

  And I know there will be a cascade of responses telling me how wrong I am, but I agree with Valerie – dress and dance like a man, not a woman!!!

Pauline Costianes

“It’s a bearded guy in drag!

Do we not have enough problems being accepted as real dancers and artists without having to deal with this?”

In what way does a man in women’s clothes (I am not saying this is what Zorba is and does, but if we assumed it for a second) take away from being  a real art?
Men have performed in women’s dress on opera and theatre stages when women were prohibited from performing. Will you say Mozart and Shakespeare are not high art? Just because bearded men in women’s dress performed?
Or – does it have nothing to do with ART, but what you personally might want or not want to see?

“Masculine and feminine are not artifiicul constructs.. they vary from culture to culture.”
This means you admit yourself notions of masculinity and femininity vary with time and place. Hence they ARE artificial (which means not determined by biology, but man and culture formed).

You are free to dress like a woman. Or should you happen to wear pants from time to time? Well, I can recommend you texts written by men, telling women what (not) to wear 100 years ago. In pretty much the spirit you are telling men what (not) to wear.
I go by not doing to other people what I would not want them to do to me.

““Rules” for female dancers are really standards, so my question to Zorba is, if female dancers performing “Oriental Dance” need to pay attention to these standards  does he consider it fair that he, just because he is male,  is somehow exempt from any requirements at all?”

Hmm we would have to ask Zorba but I doubt he’d be bare chested or dangerously slit in a church setting.
Who said he is?
I don’t think he talks about having no rules at all, but not having the DISCRIMINATORY rules set up for men in bellydance only.
As a woman I know I can tell a tale on the burden of having a bag of rules for men, and a huge box of rules for women in certain male-dominated areas. I know about the complaints by men on how women allegedly circumvent the rules.
It is always easy – and harmful/discriminatory – to attack the minority under scrutiny (token in the social science vocabulary) by majority standards.

Hmm we would have to ask Zorba but I doubt he’d be bare chested or dangerously slit in a church setting.
Who said he is?


No one, but a women would have to cover up more and few church or school venues would be comfortable with his skirts and  tops that look like bras.

I don’t think he talks about having no rules at all, but not having the DISCRIMINATORY rules set up for men in bellydance only.

Of course, that is what Zorba is complaining about but to clarify,  unlike housing or employment discrimination which is illegal, we are talking here about an ethnic  dance art form, where everyone, men and women, need to be more “discriminating”  (in t his context meaning “well thought out decisions”)  about their presentation onstage.   But, since  Zorba who always points out, correctly, that men have worn skirts throughout history ,  then it would be okay for Zorba to perform Flamenco in a ruffly dress instead following the “discriminatory” rules about men’s costume in that dance art form??????

As a woman I know I can tell a tale on the burden of having a bag of rules for men, and a huge box of rules for women in certain male-dominated areas. I know about the complaints by men on how women allegedly circumvent the rules.
It is always easy – and harmful/discriminatory – to attack the minority under scrutiny (token in the social science vocabulary) by majority standards.

Over 400 years ago in Middle East, men costumed as women and danced as women professionally because women were not allowed to perform in public.  When women started performing in public they had to adhere to standards, even to this day (think covering midriff in Egypt to avoid being fined).  So if men have the same “right” to perform belly dance, they also have the same level of accountabiity for  costuming, even if some rules are “different” due to BIOLOGY, hello the bra tops don’t work well on men because they don’t have the “equipment” to put in it!     Just common sense!

Look, you’re mixing up many things here.
Ethnic rules, broader social rules, biological rules.

We are performing an ethnic art form – I am the first to criticize (mostly female) bellydancers for not doing so, and say I feel the Arab heritage is being disrespected.
The bottom line is it is the dancer to decide for themselves what to innovate and what to respect.

The difference I am saying is discriminatory is there is a whole different outcry to what men can or cannot do, what men are or are not supposed to do. And this outcry from white Anglosaxon crowds, for example, is quite different to the ethnic requirements. Beware, in many Arab settings, diverse as they are, Arab men move their bodies in ways Anglosaxons would consider unmanly. Or wear those “dresses”, as I’ve heard quite a few Anglosaxons make fun of the white traditional men’s gear many Arab men wear.
Discrimination is not limited to the housing or labor market, and not every discrimination is illegal. Discrimination is differential perceptions, standards, rules for human beings based on group membership, not individual traits. And this entire thing “better behave manly” clearly is a discrimination of men. It puts unique gender tied restrictions on them how they ought (not) behave in oriental dance.
It is not illegal, but it being unsanctioned by the law does not mean it should be unsantioned by our moral judgments.
I say more power to men and their individual choices to express themselves. Ultimately gender roles and restrictions are holding women down more than men, and breaking them up in every possible direction will mean more freedom for all.
Not to forget the freedom for the individual, like Zorba here. In contrast to you I do not see myself in the position to tell him what (not) to do in his dance and expression simply because he was born a man.

The difference I am saying is discriminatory is there is a whole different outcry to what men can or cannot do, what men are or are not supposed to do. And this outcry from white Anglosaxon crowds, for example, is quite different to the ethnic requirements. Beware, in many Arab settings, diverse as they are, Arab men move their bodies in ways Anglosaxons would consider unmanly. Or wear those “dresses”, as I’ve heard quite a few Anglosaxons make fun of the white traditional men’s gear many Arab men wear.

What you are not mentioning is the fact that in Arab countries, men performing “Oriental Dance” on stage is not accepted and the women dancing on stage has all sorts of problems with the “Vice Police” who can literally fine them for costuming that is too risque by their cultural standards.

Discrimination is not limited to the housing or labor market, and not every discrimination is illegal. Discrimination is differential perceptions, standards, rules for human beings based on group membership, not individual traits. And this entire thing “better behave manly” clearly is a discrimination of men. It puts unique gender tied restrictions on them how they ought (not) behave in oriental dance.

Considering that belly dance originated in the Middle East, not the West, there should be more  value on that culture’s standards, not just take the dance right out of  that culture and superimpose an entirely different idealogy over it.  Yes, we are lucky to have the freedom of choice in the West, but also a real responsibility to teach belly dance students more about a culture.

It is not illegal, but it being unsanctioned by the law does not mean it should be unsantioned by our moral judgments.


I say more power to men and their individual choices to express themselves. Ultimately gender roles and restrictions are holding women down more than men, and breaking them up in every possible direction will mean more freedom for all.

There is always, in our free Westen society, plenty of freedom of expression, but what you are criticizing as “moral judgments” are not; they are critiques of a performers inappropriate choices in an ethnic dance form.


Not to forget the freedom for the individual, like Zorba here. In contrast to you I do not see myself in the position to tell him what (not) to do in his dance and expression simply because he was born a man.

Well,  Zorba here has asked dancers on an open forum their honest opinions about his costuming and was honestly and not in a morally judgemental way advised by more than one “pro” how to improve them, specifically by wearing a vest as opposed to a top that looks like a bra, and that he is bringing too many jarring elements into his costuming.  He’s decided not to listen to any of it, and even though he is not dancing “professionally” he is representing the art of belly dance, so yes, I don’t appreciate it.

Zorba,
 
Wow! I bet you never realized that your article would provoke such a debate!
 
I have to say that I come down on the “line” (if lines are being drawn here) of those who appreciate your right to freedom of expression, and to dance as you will, without regard to gender.
 
I draw some strong lines in this dance; among them, I would rain criticism down on any dancer, male or female, who uses this dance for the purpose of being sexually suggestive, putting on a “strip show” or salacious performance, but you don’t do that. I would also strongly criticize you if you gutted yourself with a knife or two during your dancing, drawing blood, but that’s not you!
 
Instead, I see a male dancer who loves this art, trying to express it as best he can, working hard to improve his skill, taking classes and workshops from the best instructors he can find—and then being criticized for the product, on the basis of gender. I’m not quite sure how else to phrase it.
 
I suspect that if you and I did spins, turns, and drops alongside one another, an audience would see the difference between female and male representations. That’s because I’ve seen video of Tito Seif doing spins, and he looks different from, for example, Randa Kamel doing the same movements. Tito has a different body type, being a man.
 
What are you supposed to do to remain authentic, restrict yourself to folkloric dance only? Tito doesn’t do that; why should you?
 
In conclusion: Go for it, Zorba! Be the best you can be!
 
Sincerely,
 
Barbara Grant
South S. F. Bay Area, CA
 
 
 
 
 
 

Zorba,
Some of my very favorite dancers (Amir Thaleb, Tito, Karim Nagi, Jim Boz) are men, and people nearly pass out when I tell them that I have absolutely LOVED the classes I’ve participated in with and performances I watched by these talented professionals.  Kudos to you for doing what you love!